Perfectly, let me reveal Ken’s masterful research project concerning the bloodlines of Llewelyn Fawr and Joanna

Merely ‘Ellen’s’ term remains a puzzle, indeed there appears to be no-you to definitely titled Ellen otherwise Helen, except perhaps an ‘Eleanor’ towards the Joanna’s front side (Eleanor from Aquitaine, mommy out of Joanna’s father King John)

Hi, group. It is it really is interesting; everything i won’t enjoys given to have access to this information twenty-five years in the past when i was researching and you may creating Here Feel Dragons!

The key intent behind that it exercising is to use, from the a glance at genealogist’s opinions about the subject and by asking some identified fresh offer, to decide who was the mother regarding Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Are she Joanna, partner out-of Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Produced circa.1188, died. February 1237) or are she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch out of Rhos, mistress away from Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, passed away??

I am going to follow this having a vacation investigation toward you’ll lifetime out-of an effective ded Susanna, given out to King Henry 111 as a beneficial hostage in 1228 along with her custody becoming offered in order to Sir Nicholas Verdun and his wife Clementia.

This new opinions of one’s Genealogists that we provides examined are only one to, feedback, and they disagree considerably. No unique evidence is present in any event, but have to state that almost all keep getting Gwladus to get new daughter away from Joanna. This is especially true of your genealogists of your own descendants out-of this new De- Braose relatives, nonetheless they ily becoming tied to the Welsh and you can English royal property!

The ensuing list away from Llywelyn’s multiple genuine and you will illegitimate youngsters seems to be generally recognized by the all the genealogists which i have learned apart from differences more than whether no. 9 really stayed. New schedules of birth down the page are also disputed by the certain:

1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, created circa.1199, passed away 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, created circa.1206, passed away 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1208? died circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince of Wales, created circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about this day, select afterwards), passed away twenty-five March 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1209 passed away 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1210, passed away 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – created circa 1210, you’ll be able to dual to help you Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, created circa 1214? Died 1259?

You will find far disagreement over the label of the parents off these types of students. There is general agreement your merely specific pupils of Llywelyn’s e Prince out-of Wales and you can Ellen (Helen) just who hitched (1) John new Scot, young buck of the earl regarding Chester and you can (2) Robert de- Quincy. Regardless of if opinion are divided along side mothers out of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you will Susanna, a lot of genealogists You will find analyzed lean for the their mommy becoming Joanna.

This really is partially along with their going dates off birth as the better as his or her marriage ceremonies to several marcher lords who, you to sivu definitely supposes, will have found so you can align their houses to this of their neighbour, the fresh Prince out-of Northern Wales and his wife, the latest king off England’s daughter. It’s believed these lords of your February wouldn’t have had a whole lot desire otherwise governmental desire for the marrying out-of its sons to your illegitimate daughters away from a beneficial Welsh prince with an excellent Welsh lady.

As to what labels of them college students, if or not by Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise others, they certainly were all called immediately following members of Llywelyn’s family relations:

Ken, we are completely in your loans

Llywelyn’s mother was titled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ away from Gwynedd. Their paternal granny is actually named ‘Gwladus’. The parents out of their grandma Susanna, have been ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you can ‘Angharad’ away from Flint and you will one another the names got to Llywelyn’s pupils. It Susanna along with had a sibling titled ‘Gwenllian’, an equivalent term as the Llywelyn’s great grandmother.